SMS 3.2 - Sake Education That Actually Helps | Timothy Sullivan

Intro

0:00 · Let's go back to to bright eyed, bushy tailed, two thousand five, Hmm. Hmm. Yes.

0:03 · Tim Sullivan. what was the sake education industry like at that time?

1:17 · Totally, yeah.

1:32 · Welcome back to Sake Master Sessions, the interview series where we push the envelope of trade level sake knowledge.

1:37 · I'm your host, Nick Lowery of Kitano Sake, and a big shout out to my partners at Savannah for helping this series come to life.

1:44 · This is the second half of my conversation with Timothy Sullivan.

1:48 · If you missed part one, where we talk about Timothy's path from corporate America to global sake ambassador, I'll link that below.

1:54 · In this episode, we turn to the bigger picture, how sake education has changed, where it still falls short.

2:01 · and how people like Timothy are helping make sake more approachable for servers, drinkers, even brewers around the world.

2:06 · We talk price, food pairing, terminology, teaching, mentorship, and the simple question Timothy keeps coming back to, what is the value for the student?

2:15 · If you want more sake conversations like this, deeper, more technical, and built for people shaping the industry, you can help in three ways. Watch to the end, join the comments, what are we getting right or wrong about sake education?

2:30 · and share this with the sake buyer, server, educator, brewer, or importer in your world who's hungry for more than basics. That's how we get this in front of the right sake people.

2:40 · Let's get into it.

Lost in Translation

2:42 · well, I'd like now to to shift gears a little bit I'd like to talk about just first sort of the evolution of sake education as as an industry, it in particular here in the in the West.

2:59 · Yeah. So this was my experience.

3:01 · And this is what led to wanting to start urban sake, is that I became passionate about sake.

3:06 · Something awoke within me and I was like, I have to learn about this thing.

3:11 · I don't speak Japanese, but it's so delicious.

3:14 · So I would like scour the you know, events listings for, there's a sake tasting event.

3:21 · And I would go, and very often it would be a brewer from Japan, and they would have someone translating, usually they would hire a translator.

3:29 · And this translator didn't know any of the technical sake words.

3:32 · So the the translations often came across very garbled and confusing.

3:32 · Got it.

3:38 · And it's no no fault to the translator.

3:40 · It's very sake can be very technical.

3:42 · And as you know, when you have a when you have a brewer presenting, they're not trained as an educator.

3:47 · They're more of a technical craftsman.

3:50 · So they're spouting all these technical words.

3:52 · And the translators who just got hired and you know trying to keep up with what is that? What's that in English?

3:58 · I don't know. And it there were a lot of less than informative tasting seminars.

4:03 · The sake tasted delicious, but when it came to education, I felt like something was literally getting lost in translation.

4:10 · And and so I said, there has to be a better resource out there for people like me that want to learn but are not fluent in Japanese. And so when I would learn something, I would say, ~ this is what junmai Dai Ginjo means.

4:25 · I would put it on my website. And over time I would refine my chart.

4:29 · I would refine my production flow.

4:32 · And I'm like, ~ this is what charcoal filtration means.

4:35 · And this is where it happens. So I would update my thing and and as I learned things over the first five or six years of, you know, doing urban sake, I I became a I often view it as like a cultural translator for sake.

4:48 · And I would, you know, explain things in English as best I could.

4:52 · And that became a real passion of mine.

4:53 · And then that morphed into becoming an educator professionally.

4:57 · so it was born out of that frustration at the beginning of not really understanding the you know, the literal translations of things and when I went to these some Sure.

5:05 · of these seminars and there were some educators out there, but not that many in the states.

5:11 · And so it was it was a real struggle to find information that was super clear, easy to understand, and available in New York.

5:21 · So then let's contrast that with the current state of sake education.

5:26 · How have things changed in that time span in the last twenty years?

5:31 · ~ man, I mean, do you ever think about that?

5:33 · Like this is your twenty years in this?

5:36 · Yeah. A generation of sake knowledge.

5:36 · Think about I think about it all the time.

5:38 · Yeah.

5:39 · Yeah.

5:39 · I think a lot of people have published books.

5:42 · A lot of people have become sake professionals.

5:45 · there are other brand ambassadors out there now.

5:48 · Like when I became a brand ambassador, I didn't know anyone else who who did that.

5:52 · And now other other breweries have named people as ambassadors.

5:56 · And as the market has expanded in the US.

5:59 · education has grown right along with it.

6:01 · So there's a number of programs you can take.

6:05 · I mentioned some of them earlier, some of the programs we host at the Sake Studies Center, the WSCT program, Sake School of America, John Gauntner's programs, Michael Tremblay's programs.

6:15 · And it's fantastic to see all these things expand and grow.

6:19 · And the more resources people have, the faster the industry can grow.

6:24 · It felt like the dark ages back when I was getting into it.

6:27 · And, you know, the internet and ~ social media did not exist.

6:31 · I joked about using my palm pilot, Sort of.

6:32 · but there was there was no social media.

6:34 · There was no besides Friendster, and there was no iPhones or smartphones really.

6:37 · Sure. Mm-hmm.

6:40 · So it it evolved rapidly with the evolution of social media.

6:45 · And those things really helped people find each other who are passionate about sake and share their.

6:51 · their passions. So it is like night and day, but, but the sake industry is still really small.

6:57 · So even though it's easier to learn things and knowledge is more accessible, we have to be better at promotion.

7:04 · And that's something that I've been working on too.

7:06 · How to connect with people who have that flicker of interest in sake Sure.

7:09 · and get them get them into a class or get them into a training.

7:13 · so that's that that's the ongoing process.

7:16 · continue on. There's no silver bullet and we just need to keep working hard.

7:20 · But I do celebrate the expansion of access to knowledge.

7:24 · I think that's that's been fantastic.

The $12 Bottle of Wine Problem

7:26 · Is there anything in particular that you attribute that difficulty in promoting sake to? Do you think it's a difference in maybe Japanese culture Mm-hmm.

7:33 · and American culture, or maybe just the the physical isolation of Japan from the rest of the world where the the product is produced?

7:41 · ~ do you attribute that that difficulty to?

7:44 · Yeah, that's this is the $64,000 question.

7:46 · this is what everyone is looking to solve.

7:48 · And I thought about it a lot. think one thing that really always stood out to me is the cost, what I'll call the cost issue.

7:55 · When sake is brought over from Japan, there's all these layers, the three-tiered system, and it adds quite a bit to the cost.

8:03 · The first time I went to Japan and looked at the retail cost of my favorite Saka, I was like, my gosh.

8:09 · The world is on sale here. Like everything is so inexpensive in Japan.

8:12 · and then it made me realize, like, no, what I'm paying is a real premium for these sakes.

8:18 · And I think they're worth it. They're the quality is amazing.

8:21 · But in Japan, they are a fraction of the price.

8:24 · And I think about that conundrum a lot.

8:26 · How can we Hit that sweet spot. You know, you can go into a a wine store and you can say, I want a ten dollar bottle of wine, I want a fifteen dollar bottle of wine, I want a twenty dollar bottle of wine.

8:37 · And you can get something really good at all those price points.

8:39 · And in the world of sake, in the average New York City liquor store, it's not those price points you can't hit for really good quality.

8:46 · ~ there's always been this this ~ disconnect with the price.

8:46 · Totally.

8:50 · that's been one big issue in my book from the beginning, like this, if we could get sake in a more affordable price point that was really, really good, it would help a lot.

9:01 · the the other You think it would solve some of that sort of risk averse nature of the consumer to like try this new product?

9:08 · if they could find a more approachable price point, they'd be willing to do more exploring.

9:11 · I really think so. I've always called it like the twelve dollar bottle of wine problem. You know, you can get that twelve dollar bottle of wine and it chances are it's gonna be pretty good.

9:21 · And we need something similar in the world of sake.

9:24 · I've I've always thought that there's this zone in the pricing that we can't really hit yet with sake.

9:30 · And that's that's been a stumbling block.

9:32 · But I think when people taste the sake at twenty dollars or twenty-five dollars or thirty dollars, It's absolutely delicious and they can still fall in love with it, Sorry.

9:39 · but it's not something that's as accessible to everybody.

9:42 · Yeah.

9:42 · Yeah, and and that's a tough target to hit for a variety of reasons.

9:45 · I mean, know, it's sake's sake's an expensive product to make and then Mm. absolutely.

9:49 · to get it from Japan to here before even adding those those three tiers onto it.

9:50 · Mm-hmm.

9:54 · you have any ideas for the the future of sake and how we get to this this price level? I know you're in education, not not necessarily in finance, but do you see a road to get us to that price point?

10:04 · Definitely not in finance. But ~ I I think that I've always viewed it as Yeah.

10:09 · a long term goal and it's kind of the economies of scale.

10:12 · So as more and more sake is produced in the US, let's say we have 27 or 30 commercial breweries in the United States right now, when that is 200, in how many every years, Cool, okay.

10:23 · yeah, you got to dream big. I think that that will you know.

10:25 · That's right.

10:26 · there'll be more rice available, more sake rice available at a lower price point.

10:31 · The economies of scale will pick up and it will allow, I think, for us to finally fill that $12 wine bottle hole in the market.

10:39 · And ~ that's something I've thought about for a long time.

10:42 · When sake become when really good sake becomes available at those more affordable entry-level price points, it's gonna really change the ~ the speed that.

10:51 · sake can be adopted across the the whole sector.

10:56 · the other thing I think about with sake that's a challenge is like the, you know, the inability to read labels or kind of the, you know, the foreign foreignness of sake, perceived foreignness and that it has to be consumed with Japanese food.

11:08 · Mm-hmm.

11:11 · So this lock t like having sake and sushi tidally locked to each other, Yeah.

11:16 · you know, ~ that That is something that it's a reality for a lot of consumers.

11:21 · And I work very hard to break that.

11:23 · And when I teach classes, I tell people, you know, some sakes actually pair better with pizza than sushi.

11:29 · And they're like, what? And ~ it it's something that is the future.

11:29 · Absolutely.

11:33 · You know, pairing sake with non-Japanese food ~ is the future and it's gonna help expand tremendously.

11:42 · I do I do a A luncheon called Sake for Wine Psalms.

11:46 · And this is sponsored by the NTA.

11:47 · Okay.

11:49 · And I do it about once a season, once a quarter. And we get some budget from the National Tax Agency of Japan.

11:56 · And we introduce ~ 30 wine psalms to pairing sake and non-Japanese food.

12:01 · And I think this is a great way to show people at an industry level: like, hey, just sit down and taste this stuff.

12:08 · You're gonna taste, you know.

12:09 · sake with Caesar salad and pumpkin creme brulee and beef bourguignon and it's gonna blow your mind.

12:15 · yeah. Absolutely.

12:16 · And it it's a very direct experiential way to show industry people that are, you know, deep deep in the wine world, like, hey, don't forget about sake.

12:26 · I I always say that if you if you run a a restaurant and you have a wine list Yeah.

12:31 · and there's beers and ciders on your wine list, then You have room for sake a hundred percent.

12:36 · And ~ that's that's my target audience.

12:36 · Absolutely. Preach.

12:39 · Yes. I'm preaching.

The Gaps Still Left to Fill

12:41 · So ~ then in this evolution of of the sake education landscape, do do you think there were any particular gaps that are still existing?

12:50 · Are there any ~ any opportunities that you think we still need to capitalize on from an ed strictly an education perspective?

12:59 · Well, I think the the gaps that we identified are really critical.

13:03 · So we developed the sake server certification and I identified the restaurant server as kind of an underserved demographic for education that was specifically built for them.

13:14 · Absolutely.

13:16 · And the reason is because they are the people on the front lines.

13:20 · They approach a table and say, What can I get you to drink? And They can just as easily say, you know, we have some new sakes that just came in.

13:28 · They're absolutely delicious. Would you like a sample taste?

13:31 · You know, it it is awakening them to the ability to introduce people to sake.

13:37 · How it can like for me, it was super delicious.

13:40 · I ordered it on a whim, but if I had someone recommend it to me and taste it and I had my aha moment.

13:45 · That is true hospitality. You know, when you introduce somebody, when you introduce something to some something Absolutely.

13:51 · new and they love it and it gives them an amazing culinary experience, that is omotenashi or hospitality.

13:59 · You're introducing them to something delicious and it elevates their experience.

14:03 · And so we we train people to do this.

14:06 · So that that's something that I really felt was absolutely underserved with the existing.

14:11 · training that was out there. How to talk to people about sake, how to answer basic questions, what type of questions you may get from the average restaurant goer.

14:19 · you know, they're not going to talk about acidity 1.5 versus acidity 1.6, you know, ~ they're going to ask like, what what's sake made from? you know, can I, is it all right to drink it out of this wine glass?

14:31 · And why are you serving in a wine glass and that kind of thing.

14:34 · That's been super exciting because I felt very passionate about wanting to educate in that space. So I think that's one thing.

14:40 · And I think the the other thing that is more down the road is educating people who have a passion about fermentation and brewing.

14:46 · And that's something that needs a lot of support in the industry and will help grow Sure.

14:51 · the industry more on the professional and production side.

14:54 · So that's more of a future project, but I think that's another area where we need.

14:58 · a lot of support and mentoring and internship programs that are more codified and formalized. And I think that's something that ~ should be on the roadmap for the future.

15:08 · Totally agree. I think they're they're excellent observations.

15:10 · And know, we talked about the gaps in sake education, but there's a lot of stuff that does exist.

Good Sake Education vs. Bad Sake Education

15:15 · And I'm sure you've seen examples of good sake education and bad sake education.

15:20 · what's the difference between good and bad education?

15:22 · Yeah, that's a great question.

15:24 · I I think over the years of learning to be an educator, teaching other people's programs, and developing my own sake education programs, I think one thing that I've come back to again and again is asking why and what's the value for the student?

15:40 · Why teach this and what's the value to the student?

15:43 · For example, for the Sake Server class, we talk about Just as an example, we talk about sake rice.

15:48 · So we teach the servers a little bit about sake rice, how it's different from eating rice and about polishing, but we don't dive into every variety of sake rice and what are the two grandparents' strains of Yamara Nishiki and all that stuff.

16:04 · Customers are not going to ask that.

16:06 · They're going to wanna know about shimpaku and rice milling.

16:09 · And we teach them what they need to know.

16:12 · And what is of value to them in their role in the sake industry?

16:17 · and it's the same thing with learning how to taste sake.

16:20 · some people learn how to blind taste sake, and they have visions of being a master of wine and guessing the prefecture and guessing the rice variety and guessing the milling rate.

16:30 · And I always pause and think like, well, what's the value? Like, what's the purpose of that in your Sure.

16:35 · job in the industry?

16:37 · So I teach people to blind taste, but it's just for evaluation without bias of the aroma profiles.

16:43 · Mm-hmm.

16:44 · And why do you need to know what the aroma profiles are?

16:47 · It's so you can introduce it to a customer.

16:50 · So you can sell it to a customer.

16:51 · So you can come up with a good pairing.

16:52 · Sure.

16:53 · So it's a critical evaluation of the sake, but it's for a very practical reason.

16:58 · So I like to think of the practicality and the purpose behind what I'm teaching.

17:03 · Another really good example of this is the sake classifications.

17:07 · So, you know, junmai, junmai ginjo, Totally. Okay. Yeah.

17:10 · junmai daiginjo. This is something we always have to teach.

17:13 · And you mentioned my sake chart.

17:15 · And it is like looking at a chart and a PowerPoint, and people are there to have a fun sake tasting class.

17:20 · And how do you make this interesting?

17:22 · Well, I I make sure to tell people before I introduce the chart is that this is going to empower you when if you can stick with me for four minutes.

17:30 · And we'll go through this. When you go into a liquor store the next time or you open that sake menu the next time and you see some of these terms, it's going to help you find a sake that's better for you, better for your budget, better for your palate.

17:42 · And this little bit of knowledge will help you become a more empowered consumer.

17:47 · And that gets people on board.

17:49 · And then they're like, all right, Sure.

17:50 · let's look at the chart. I want to learn this.

17:52 · So it again, it's about what's it's not just to teach them these terms so that they know it, but.

17:58 · How does it serve them? How does it serve them as a consumer or as someone who works in the industry? So that's always in the back of my mind when I'm building my courses and building the education.

18:08 · You can't just memorize for completeness sake.

18:11 · You really have to tell the students how it will benefit them in their business or as a consumer.

Moromi Can Wait

18:17 · Sure. Yeah, I mean that's that's one of the things that I've personally struggled with in in training staff is, you know, Mm.

18:23 · at at a certain level there's there's just so much vocabulary, so many new words that until the context of them makes sense, Mm-hmm.

18:30 · it seems just like rote memorization.

18:33 · so how how do you navigate that aspect of training this product that has its own distinct language to your point earlier that Even in Japanese, a lot of these terms are are not widespread in the common vernacular. So how do you how do you stop your students from being just overwhelmed by all of this terminology?

18:51 · Yeah, that's another great question.

18:52 · I I think that when you're introducing concepts to your students, you have to keep in mind what level they're at, how deep you're going to go, and be sure not to overwhelm them.

19:03 · For example, in the sake server course, my level one class, I don't dive into all the Japanese terms for all the production processes. Like I may not say Moromi, for example. I may just say the main sake mash.

19:15 · Or I may not say shubo, I may say the fermentation starter or the yeast starter.

19:20 · And I teach them the English word for that step first.

19:23 · And then when we move on to the more advanced class, we can ~ learn the Japanese terms for it.

19:29 · so I always keep the audience in mind how deep we need to go into the topics and don't don't overwhelm with unnecessary information, like knowing when to hold back is just as important as knowing when to teach something.

19:42 · Yeah. In music they say the rests are as important as the notes.

19:43 · Because if if you o Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And I also always make a point of breaking up the theory that we talked about, the textbook part with tastings, or let's get up and do the brewery tour, or let's get up and ~ do an aroma evaluation exercise or something that gets them up and walking around. so I try not to have people sit in lecture mode for long stretches of time.

20:08 · I find that breaking that, it's like, let's do a tasting. Let's taste two side by side.

20:11 · And it shifts the focus and refreshes the mind.

20:14 · And they're using a different part of their brain.

20:17 · And then we'll go back to the textbook stuff.

20:18 · So I found that that's very helpful as well to to break up that a little bit and you can absorb bit by bit.

20:25 · Yeah, not only just segment it, but then also anchor it in these other senses.

20:29 · That seems that seems important.

20:30 · Absolutely.

20:33 · Excellent. ~ It's what what tools can you give or tips can you give to someone that has to lead a tour or a class where they have people along a spectrum of education?

Beginners, Experts, and Everyone Between

20:42 · Mm.

20:44 · ~ Yeah. does sometimes happen.

20:46 · When I lead a tour, sometimes you have people who have a deeper knowledge and some that are never had sake before.

20:52 · So how do you how do you navigate that?

20:54 · Well, I make a point to never leave the beginners behind.

20:57 · So if if one person is super asking me about, Okay.

21:01 · you know, some advanced topic, I'll I'll appro approach that a little bit and get a quick answer out there.

21:07 · And I always say like, if you want to dive deeper into this, like this is a this is a beginner's tour.

21:11 · If you want to dive deeper into this, I've got time for you right after when we finish up and let's let's dive deep into this. ~ but I want to make sure we cover blank topic as well.

21:20 · And then I move into the next beginner's topic.

21:23 · So when I have those advanced people come to one of my beginners classes, I absolutely have to be sure that All the basics get covered and everyone who's just starting gets the information they need. And I indulge the more advanced questions a little bit as much as I can, but I always want to make sure that we go back to respect the people who are rightly there at a beginner level.

21:48 · Sure.

21:49 · One thing I one thing I always do in my classes is I have this online response system that I use. one of the questions I always ask in my lectures is how much experience do you have with Sake?

21:59 · Absolute beginner, I learned just learned a little bit.

22:02 · I've taken up class before, I'm an expert.

22:04 · So we can see, we have 70% absolute beginners, but we have a few more advanced people here.

22:09 · And, you know, that gives me a sense as the educator, where people are as a group. And you always have to strike that balance.

22:16 · But if it's a beginner class, I never want to leave those beginners behind and make them feel like, my God, I'm in the wrong class if I talk about too too much advanced stuff.

22:25 · So ~ you just have to strike that balance and I wanna be welcoming to everybody in the class And on that on that point of welcoming people, how do you approach how do you approach for those newer students making sake less intimidating? How do you encourage them to to get out of their shell and be comfortable asking the quote unquote stupid question?

22:45 · Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, one thing I do is I let people know that it's okay to ask questions. And I set the stage at the beginning of the class.

22:53 · Like we're gonna have fun. And it's okay to ask questions.

22:55 · And we're all here to learn. ~ I also make it a point to taste sake.

23:01 · And I think again, that experiential component when you break up lectures and questions and understanding a little more difficult things.

23:08 · When you break it up with tasting, people can experience things from different, different ways. So we're talking about charcoal filtration or kimoto and yamahai, and they're like, my gosh, what is all this lactic acid craziness?

23:20 · And then you're like, well, let's taste one.

23:21 · And then you can taste sokujo This sokujo This is yamahai And it's like, ~ this is more fun than talking about it.

23:28 · And yeah, this is great. And then you can reinforce the points through Absolutely. Yeah.

23:32 · the experience of tasting it. And That's the whole point at the end of the day is we want consumers to enjoy sake.

23:38 · we want them to choose sake when they're in a restaurant.

23:41 · And for professional training, we want them to be enthusiastic about sake and pass that enthusiasm onto their customers. So I have to be that way too as the teacher.

23:51 · So I have to bring enthusiasm and ~ the different ways to experience the information through tasting, through lecture, through watching the brewers do their thing.

24:01 · It's it's finding ~ great balance in reaching the students ~ the best way.

24:06 · Sure.

24:07 · Everyone learns a little bit differently and we try to provide ~ an approach to understanding in many different ways.

24:14 · I feel like I know the answer to this, but do you would you describe yourself as someone that gets invigorated by teaching, invigorated by being in groups and would you describe yourself as an extrovert?

24:23 · Does this energize you naturally when you go to to teach about sake?

24:27 · it's funny. I do not describe myself as an extrovert.

24:31 · I am kind of a homebody. I feel more like an introvert.

24:31 · Okay.

24:35 · But when I'm teaching about sake, something changes. Like I become more outgoing.

24:41 · I feel like I want to convey this information to all these people who've come to spend time with me. And it's like a flow state, you know, I get very ~ in the moment.

24:49 · Sure. You're an athlete.

24:50 · And the Not at all. The longer you teach, the more the more comfortable you become with the material, the more confident you are as a teacher.

24:58 · And it it allows you a freedom.

25:01 · When I first started teaching, I was terrified. Someone would ask me a question that I didn't know the answer to, and I would look like a idiot.

25:07 · Yeah.

25:07 · And that was a real genuine fear.

25:10 · But I think with experience, you gain confidence to become a presenter.

25:14 · And to become an educator. And it's okay to say, that is an amazing question. I do not know the answer to it, but we're gonna find out. And I will get back to you on that.

25:23 · Or through your experience to to know the answer.

25:25 · And I was lucky to do an internship in Japan in 2016.

25:30 · So I worked in Japan for one year at Hakkaisan as a sake brewer.

25:34 · And a lot of people thought I did that internship experience so that I could be a brewer myself, but that is not true.

25:40 · I wanted that experience so that when I was in the classroom, I would have like in the trenches knowledge of how sake was made.

25:46 · Sure.

25:47 · so if someone asked me, how do they move the liquid from that tank into that Yabuta press thing? How like how does that physically happen?

25:55 · You know, when I was a beginning sake teacher, I don't really know the answer to that.

25:59 · But then, I learned about pumps and hoses and clamps and all that stuff.

26:02 · And you you become more confident as an educator.

26:06 · And that really comes through. And I think it can make the classroom experience more comfortable and easygoing when you get into that flow state.

26:15 · And that confidence comes with experience.

26:18 · So there's no no quick fix for that.

26:18 · Sure.

26:20 · from a student's perspective, I think, very trust building to have your educator say, Well, I I'm actually not quite sure.

26:28 · That's not something that I've been asked or that's not something that's very Yeah.

26:30 · common. That sort of humility that comes with being able to say, I don't know, I think really ingratiates you to an audience.

26:35 · Mm.

26:37 · Would you agree with that?

26:38 · Yes, it it can be very welcoming to students that, you know, you're not teaching down to them.

26:43 · But the other thing that I I always say is one of the reasons I was attracted to sake in the first place as a topic is because you can always learn something new.

26:53 · There's no finishing learning about it.

26:54 · Absolutely.

26:56 · And when it comes to regionality or production methods, know, they say sake is a there's ten thousand ways to make sake.

27:02 · And so ~ That is one of the things that attracted me to this topic and to devote my career to it is that you're never done learning, and there's always something more around the corner to surprise you and educate you.

27:16 · So as a professional, you don't get bored teaching the same thing.

27:20 · You're always learning something new and expanding your ability to share that.

27:25 · And that's a real highlight for me that.

27:27 · Sake provides this ~ endless well of ways to learn about it.

27:32 · And ~ it's really exciting.

27:34 · If nothing else, it's great job security as an educator.

Courses vs. Certifications

27:38 · let's ~ circle back to the course offerings at the sake study center.

27:43 · you've mentioned that you have s more of these I don't quite know the right term for it, but these sort of public courses, the pairings with cheese, sake for Somms but then you have certifications, your Server certification, your advanced certification.

27:57 · What in your mind, what is the difference between just a course and a certification?

28:01 · the courses that we offer every week that are an hour to ninety minutes in length, those are really geared towards consumers.

28:08 · And they're meant to be entertaining, educational, and our goal is to get people tasting sake and give them the Just the right amount of knowledge that they need to take with them and be empowered when they're in a restaurant or when they're in the liquor store.

28:23 · So we want to educate them a little bit, entertain them a little bit, give them an amazing culinary experience, and give them a brewery tour. So that is about awakening the consumer and helping people to build that confidence they need to.

28:40 · Order sake next time they're in the restaurant or make a more informed decision Thank you.

28:43 · about what they want to drink and get them excited about the process and and share some of the passion that I feel as an educator.

28:51 · That's a comment I get a lot from my students.

28:53 · They're like, wow, I could really feel like how excited you are about this.

28:56 · And I'm excited too. And I'm like, Sure. Yeah.

28:57 · that's great. So that that's what those are really geared towards ~ consumers and people who are.

29:04 · Maybe just getting into sake as a consumer, you know, making decisions about which sake to order at the sushi restaurant, or maybe grabbing a bottle to bring to their friend's dinner.

29:14 · And usually these are people that had a good sake experience somewhere and they wanted to learn more.

29:18 · So they're like, hey, let's take one of those classes or let's do a brewery tour with a tasting.

29:23 · And, you know, I had some really good sake the other day and I don't know anything about it. And I want to learn more.

29:28 · So that's our ideal customer for these consumer classes.

29:31 · And then for the certifications, these are for people who want some type of professional advancement in the world of sake, whether they're already in hospitality or they're getting started in retail or ~ restaurant work and they want confidence and they want some type of certification in those areas.

29:50 · We now offer two levels as I described before.

29:53 · And yeah, that's just for people who are more professionally engaged and Want that they also want confidence in presenting sake to others, but they're basically becoming educators themselves.

30:04 · Like when they stand in front of a table and introduce the sake list, Sure.

30:07 · they have to educate as much as we do.

30:10 · So ~ we're we're teaching them and empowering them and trying to build up their confidence to introduce sake to their customers as well.

30:17 · So that's the primary difference. The the audience is definitely a little different from our regular courses to our professional courses.

30:24 · when you're approaching developing these courses versus the certifications, not just in what you talk about or how you talk about it, but in the way you actually compile your information, maybe whether it's the rigor or the technicality of it, is there a Is there a difference in how you approach creating the curriculum itself?

30:43 · There really is. I mean, the consumer courses, we touch on topics very briefly and we we want to empower people with a little bit of knowledge and we always ~ teach them the correct things, of course. we teach them about sake ingredients, rice water, yeast, and koji. But we basically scratch the surface on each of those so that they know what they are, they get a good definition of it, but we don't dive deep into all the nuance of all of those.

31:08 · Mm.

31:09 · Sure.

31:09 · We need to keep the class moving.

31:11 · So if everyone looks a little bored with my water story, I can say, you know, let's move on to sake number two.

31:16 · And we we taste something delicious and everyone perks back up again.

31:17 · Yeah, sure.

31:20 · So With your certifications, then by contrast, do you feel like you've established these are the things that I need my students to learn?

31:28 · Yeah. I the big difference is there's an exam for the ~ professional courses that we offer and they need to pass the they need to pass a test.

31:36 · And I let them know what information is key, what they should focus on. And if they ~ don't pay attention in class or don't really care or they're only there because their boss made them go to this class, they may not pass the test.

31:49 · So it's not a given and it really has to come from within.

31:54 · Like you have to be motivated to study to pass the test.

31:58 · And I hope that when I transmit my passion about this subject to the students, that that will make them motivated to want to learn.

32:05 · When I tell my little stories or when I ~ pass on my passion and why I think it's interesting, I hope that they pick up a little piece of that and it will motivate them to want to study and pass the test.

32:18 · Great. And from your perspective now, having offered this certification, the the expectation is I I take this course, I pass the test, and I have this paper that says, Timothy Sullivan has given me his graces, I can go forward in the world now.

32:35 · Is there how is your sense of that saying, I've put my stamp on this person?

32:39 · do you feel a weight? Do you feel a a responsibility, a fear that your disciples now are are out in the world?

32:46 · How how does that feel to you?

32:48 · I don't feel fear. I feel very excited.

32:50 · one thing I always say when I finish up the class, I'm like, okay, you're gonna have your test is coming up and you know, we can a ask me any questions.

32:58 · But ~ I always pass out my business card and I say, ~ congratulations. I am I am now your sake sensei.

33:05 · And that makes everybody laugh.

33:07 · And I say, you know, we're in community now.

33:09 · Like I'm your teacher. And if you ever have a 911 sake emergency and Yeah.

33:14 · you need to call someone with a sake question, you can always call me. Like I'm your, I'm your teacher now. And I want to build community with all these people who've gone through my course. And I have people come up to me.

33:25 · I'm like at a restaurant, and someone will come up to me and they're like, Timothy, I took your class 12 years ago on Zoom.

33:32 · my God, it's so good to see you.

33:34 · And I'm like, I'm like, hi. And and over the years you've I've taught so many people, but it's great to reconnect with people.

33:40 · And I always make a point to tell them, you know, like, I'm I'm your mentor now if you want it.

33:46 · Like, please reach out to me anytime.

33:48 · I want to stay in touch. I want to help you on your journey.

33:51 · And I wish someone said that to me when I was just learning.

33:54 · And so I I work very hard to stay in touch with all my students and make sure that they have someone they can call.

34:00 · If there's ever a question or a sticky situation or something comes up r in r relation to sake that they need advice or help with.

34:08 · So that is something that is very, very important to me. And I always make a point of highlighting that in my classes.

34:13 · But as far as students being out there in the world, I'm just thrilled that they have the certification from me and they may not pursue sake as their main thing, but the fact that they have that in their back pocket and they have Mm-hmm.

34:25 · a little more confidence when it comes time to talk about sake.

34:28 · That makes me feel great.

Do’s, Don’ts, and Over-Educating Yourself

34:29 · if you wouldn't mind, can you distill for us maybe a handful of key takeaways from our conversation?

34:36 · th maybe some three do's, three don'ts if you're a sake educator.

34:40 · You've got to teach a class whether to the public or to your staff.

34:43 · What are your like golden rules that you bring into to teaching?

34:46 · Hmm.

34:46 · Yeah. one I already mentioned, which is do put yourself in the shoes of your student.

34:52 · What's the purpose of the class?

34:54 · What do you want them to take away from it?

34:56 · And what's going to be useful to them as they leave the classroom?

35:00 · If they're going to be working in a restaurant, if they're just going to be you know, a sake consumer in the future, put yourself in their shoes and say, What what do you want the outcome to be at the end of the class?

35:10 · And use that as your guiding.

35:12 · Principle. So that's one thing I really recommend.

35:14 · A second thing I really recommend that helped me a tremendous amount was I remember when I was very approaching teaching my first class, I went to the bookstore and I got a book on how to be a good presenter, Okay. ~ okay.

35:25 · like how to get up and talk in front of people.

35:28 · How to present something and not be totally boring was like so helpful.

35:33 · Got it. Sure.

35:33 · And ~ so If if you're gonna be, if you're usually a brewer and you work in the brewery and you all of a sudden have to get up and talk, talk to a group of people, reading a book on just how to be a presenter, how to present yourself and how to broach topics in in a speech.

35:50 · was really, really helpful. So I would recommend finding a good book Absolutely.

35:53 · on how to present, how to teach.

35:55 · that was really helpful to me.

35:57 · I think the last tip I would really have is just be sure to have fun.

36:01 · If you create an atmosphere of fun and excitement, that the students are gonna feel that and they're gonna take all their cues from you as the teacher. So if you're like, this is really hard and you better learn all this stuff and Don't I'm gonna be really disappointed in you.

36:19 · know, like if you approach it with that mentality, people are gonna be gripped with fear.

36:23 · But if you start the class by saying, We're gonna have so much fun today, I'm so excited to be with you.

36:28 · We're gonna take my gosh, the sakes I have for you are amazing.

36:31 · And we have a few charts to look at, but we're gonna we're gonna make it a lot of fun.

36:36 · I try to start my classes like that to set the stage that.

36:39 · This is gonna be an enjoyable experience.

36:42 · And we're in a sake brewery and we're about to taste this amazing stuff and we're gonna learn about this amazing beverage.

36:47 · And setting the tone for the class is really, really important. And a smile.

36:52 · That's the last thing you have to smile when you educate.

36:54 · Yeah. Okay. Great.

36:56 · really, really important. and some things not to do.

36:58 · Yes, please. Yeah.

36:59 · Okay. ~ I think.

37:01 · I'm scared you're gonna say things that I do all the time.

37:03 · No, no, not at all. ~ I think ~ the first thing is don't overstate your knowledge.

37:14 · Like if there's something you don't know or you get a question, you're like, huh. I I think it's it's really as we talked about before, it it instills even more confidence with the students if you admit the limits of your knowledge. Not everybody knows everything.

37:29 · And not everyone can be a a a super expert in everything.

37:33 · And there's always something new to learn.

37:36 · when I was first starting teaching, I would keep track of like all these curveball questions I got that I didn't know the answer to. And those have become fewer and fewer, but I still get questions regularly that they're like, ~ I, you know, that's a really good I never looked at it that way.

37:50 · Let me find out. I'll get back to you.

37:52 · Knowing your limits and being very genuine about what you know.

37:55 · Not everyone can know everything, but if you're educating, chances are you know a lot more than the students and you can bring a lot of value to them, but you don't have to know every nuance of production.

38:05 · and what else not to do? well, I think that when we're dealing with alcohol, you have to be careful like To know your limits with alcohol and your students' limits with alcohol.

38:14 · Sure.

38:16 · And like when I'm teaching people and it's a fun ~ you know, cocktail style seminar and people are drinking, that's totally fine. But if I'm educating professionals, like I make everyone spit and teach them the professional method of like respecting alcohol and the limits of that.

38:33 · So I guess the don't do is, you know, just pay attention to.

38:37 · people's consumption, your own consumption around alcohol.

38:40 · And just that is a is a area that has to be respected and it's very real Absolutely.

38:45 · in our community. So ~ that's an excellent point to be respectful of I've definitely seen people over educate themselves to put it that way.

38:53 · Yeah, totally. well great, thank you for that.

38:54 · so as we begin to wrap up here, ~ is there anything in our conversation that you were hoping we would talk about Mm-hmm.

39:01 · that we didn't? Anything that I missed in asking you?

39:04 · Mm-hmm.

39:04 · Well, there's one thing I touched on briefly that I think is really important that I want to highlight when it comes to educating.

39:08 · Please.

39:11 · This goes for consumer classes and professional classes.

39:14 · And that is being interactive with the students.

39:17 · I ~ you know, when you're an educator, you have to teach and you have to talk and you have to instruct everybody, but I try as much as I can to make it a back and forth.

39:26 · And I ask questions to students.

39:28 · I say, what's your experience with this topic?

39:30 · or ~ have you ever had this style of sake before?

39:33 · ~ and I mentioned using the polling system that I use in the classes.

39:37 · And that's a way to get responses from everyone without making someone stand Mm-hmm.

39:41 · up and talk in front of the whole class.

39:43 · But the the key point I wanted to mention that I think is so important is to make classes interactive.

39:48 · It shouldn't be a one way stream of information, just make it make it a two way street.

39:52 · That's really important for engaging fun education.

39:57 · That that is a a skill that not everyone has.

40:00 · It's something for sure to work on.

Lightning Round, The Shu Box, and Future Guests

40:02 · ~ for me I'd like to as a part of a wrap up do some some quick lightning round questions, not nearly as formal.

40:09 · So these will come fast, just right off the top of your head and give me the best answer that that you can think of, first thing that comes to your mind.

40:15 · Mm-hmm.

40:16 · So first, if you weren't in sake, what would you be doing instead?

40:19 · I would probably be a language professor in academia.

40:24 · I might be teaching German language or literature, maybe something in translation, but I'd probably be involved in languages.

40:30 · Excellent. Can you tell us the last sake you had that wowed you?

40:34 · Well, it's such a tough question.

40:36 · I know this is lightning round.

40:36 · I know.

40:38 · I have to be fast.

40:39 · gosh. Well, the the last sake I had, I drank a sake last night. It was Suigei Tokubetsu Junmai.

40:47 · And this is a sake that is so great because it is middle middle of the road and balanced in the best way.

40:55 · So it really wowed me in that regard.

40:58 · Like I think this is a sake that could please anybody.

41:01 · So that's one I had last night, and I was remarking it.

41:04 · how approachable it is. And I think that type of sake is really very much needed in our industry. So that that was a wow for me.

41:14 · Excellent. I love that. And okay, now maybe getting a little controversial.

41:18 · Is there a trend in sake today that you really wish would die?

41:23 · This is just between us, right?

41:24 · ~ And you know, who who the dozens that will watch.

41:27 · I I think people who compare like natural wine to sake, like nom un pasteurized sake or something, they make all these parallels between natural wine and sake.

41:42 · That's something that I think should go away.

41:44 · I don't think it's helpful.

41:45 · And that's my answer.

41:47 · right, hot take. Hot take from Timothy Sullivan.

41:49 · Okay, last lightning round question.

41:51 · before you came on, you were making holiday cookies, favorite holiday cookie.

41:56 · Yes.

41:56 · I love gingerbread with a vanilla glaze on it.

42:00 · So not just a gingerbread cookie, but it has to have this like sugar glaze on it.

42:04 · That is that is right up there in my book.

42:04 · Got it.

42:06 · Excellent. For me it's those like buttery biscuits.

42:10 · those are the ones for me.

42:11 · okay, I want to give you the opportunity to step on what I've decided I'm gonna call this "The Shu Box" It's kind of like a soapbox, but a play on words for shu meaning alcohol.

42:21 · So step on your shu box and promote whatever it is out in the world that you're working on that you wanna want people to see, to interact with.

42:29 · All right. Well, I have a few things I'm gonna plug.

42:32 · The first one is the Sake Studies Center.

42:34 · So I as you know, I'm the director of education there.

42:37 · We talked a lot about the classes we offer.

42:39 · So if anyone is interested in our consumer or our professional training, please visit sake studiescenter dot com.

42:46 · And we have our course schedule there.

42:48 · And it is ~ a great emerging education resource for people.

42:53 · So I really hope that.

42:54 · anyone who's listening to this and wants some education that you'll consider visiting us at the study center.

42:59 · the other thing I want to highlight is the Urban Sake website.

43:02 · So I've been working on that for 20 years.

43:04 · I'm gonna be celebrating 20 years very soon.

43:07 · And I one thing I've made that I sell from that is I have a tasting notebook.

43:13 · it's a ~ five by seven-inch analog notebook that people can keep notes in about.

43:19 · tasting sakes and it's something I sell on the website.

43:22 · So I would if you're interested in a notebook that you can carry around and if you like pen and paper like I do, I think that's something that you should check out.

43:29 · It's a great gift for sake lovers as well.

43:31 · And the last thing I'll tout is my podcast.

43:35 · I am another middle aged guy with a podcast, Yes, yes.

43:37 · which there's too many of us, but it's called Sake Revolution I do it with my friend John Puma.

43:42 · And ~ we have been going for five years with this podcast, and it is a whole bunch of fun.

43:48 · And we have a lot of great sakes that we taste and we approach everything from a beginner's point of view. So this is not a podcast that focuses on complicated hair splitting when it comes to defining words or all that stuff.

44:04 · We focus on enjoying sake, talking about topics that will be of use to our listeners and things that can help people pick a sake or ~ a food pairing or learn a little bit about something really helpful when they're deciding their sake. And we try to tell some jokes and have a lot of fun.

44:22 · And we all keep it to 30 minutes so it's not overwhelming.

44:27 · So if you're interested in ~ listening to a podcast about sake, we have the only sake podcast in the US.

44:32 · please give that a listen. And that again is sake revolution.

44:34 · So that's that's all I have to promote.

44:36 · Excellent. mean, I can I will throw a hearty endorsement behind the Sake Revolution podcast. I mean, I think I've listened to every single episode and ~ you know, to your point that you aim it towards towards the beginner, there are still things that I find informative in listening to it as as a brewer of n almost a decade.

44:54 · And Timothy, my last question for you.

44:56 · in the spirit of building this sake community that we've talked about a handful of times now in our discussion, I am asking everyone that comes on this series to recommend someone that they can introduce me to whose voice needs to be heard, who should share their expertise on some topic related to sake.

45:16 · who's somebody that you're willing to introduce me to that should be a guest as part of this series?

45:21 · Mm.

45:21 · Yeah, I think that you know, a number of people come to mind, but one person in particular is someone you probably know, ~ Mr. Chris Johnson, the sake ninja.

45:32 · Okay.

45:33 · yes, yes.

45:34 · CJ has been a friend of mine for years and he has had many different roles in the sake industry. And he is so much so he has so much knowledge about different areas. He was a chef, he ran a restaurant, he's been a distributor, he's been an educator, if I had to pin him down on one topic, what should I discuss with CJ?

45:55 · I always love having these engaging conversations with Chris because he's had experiences that I haven't had and he has a a real depth to his time that he's been in the industry. And I always learn something when I talk to CJ and I think that you know, if you asked him the same kind of questions that we talked about, like what's the solution to getting more consumers?

46:17 · I think that's a question we should ask all all the people that come on your show.

46:21 · Okay, great.

46:21 · ~ that's the that's one of the cornerstone questions.

46:25 · How do we get more consumers of sake?

46:27 · What's your idea to solve that issue?

46:29 · I would love to hear that answer from all the different experts you have on the show.

46:33 · Okay, great. Yeah, I think that would be an excellent through line.

46:36 · Awesome. thank you so much for spending your time here today, ~ for sharing your expertise. It's been an honor to have you on.

46:45 · I've been a podcast guest of yours and I'm so grateful that you were willing to return the favor to me. So Thank you so much, Tim. I appreciate All right. Thank you so much. It's been really great to talk with you.

46:56 · And ~ I I'm super excited for the series and I look forward to seeing some of the other videos you're producing.

47:03 · Thank you so much for having me today.

47:05 · It's it's been so much fun Absolutely. Thanks, Tim.

47:07 · Okay, I've stopped the recording.

47:07 · A huge thank you to Timothy Sullivan for joining me for this sake master session.

47:09 · Are we still super delayed?

47:12 · If you made it to the end, you are exactly who this series is for.

47:16 · These conversations are built for the people who want to go deeper on sake.

47:20 · Not just what sake is, but how it's taught, sold, served, brewed, and understood.

47:25 · So help me keep the conversation going.

47:28 · Drop a comment. What are we getting right or wrong about sake education?

47:31 · What should Tim and I have pushed into further?

47:34 · What lessons should the sake industry be teaching?

47:37 · And if someone came to mind while you were watching, a buyer, server, brewer, whatever, send it to them. You can find links to Tim, Urban Sake, Sake Revolution, Sake Study Center, all of it in the description. And if you missed part one of our conversation, I'll link that as well. lastly, subscribe for more Sake Master sessions, and I'll see you in the next video.

47:59 · Cheers.