SMS 3.1 - Timothy Sullivan: From Urban Sake to the Sake Studies Center

Teasers and Intro

0:00 · the origin that I see for you, in Sake was around 2005.

0:05 · Yes, that's right. That sounds like the beginning of my villain origin story.

0:10 · I think that sounds right.

0:11 · a website called Urban Sake. to start the website I was looking for and couldn't find.

0:15 · that very first sake I ever had was Hakkaisan Junmai ginjo.

0:19 · And then in 2013, they invited me to represent them exclusively.

0:23 · So that began my role as a brand ambassador.

0:27 · Wow.

0:27 · Brooklyn Kura ⁓ and ⁓ Hakkaisan and myself have a joint vision, and that is making sake a global beverage, And in order to make that happen, we have a very firm belief that education has to be the cornerstone of this effort.

0:43 · one thing that makes the Sake Studies Center really unique is that we're the only sake school that is attached to a working, functioning brewery.

0:52 · So we like to have people train at Brooklyn Kura and show them how you can do this ⁓ outside of Japan.

0:59 · I don't wanna take people to Japan and say, hey, this is the only way you can do it.

1:02 · And if you can't live in Japan for five years and become fluent in Japanese, forget it.

1:06 · Welcome back to the Sake Master Sessions, presented in collaboration with the Sake Brewers Association of North America and Kitano Sake. I'm your host, Nick Lowry and today I'm joined by Timothy Sullivan of Urban Sake, Sake Revolution, Hakkaisan and Sake Studies Center Fame.

1:22 · I split my conversation with Tim into two parts, this first section being all about Tim and his path from corporate director to global sake ambassador. We cover how one fateful bottle of Hakkaisan junmai ginjo changed the direction of his entire life.

1:37 · From creating his own sake resource in urban sake, to being awarded Sake samurai, and to eventually landing his dream job, representing the brewery behind the sake that started it all.

1:48 · Given that you're here, you've probably already heard a lot about sake from Tim, but I hope this discussion gives you a little more insight into who he is as a person, and I want to hear about your experience in the comments.

1:59 · How has Tim's career impacted your own relationship with sake?

2:05 · Looking ahead to part two of our discussion, we'll pick apart the good and bad of sake education so we can all be better ambassadors to this beverage that we love.

2:13 · So be sure to subscribe to Kitano Sake and SBANA channels to get that video when it drops. And if you find value in this kind of long form sake conversation, please like and share to help spread the word.

2:24 · Engagement is what really helps these conversations reach more people and support the work to keep making them.

2:29 · With that, here's part one of my conversation with Timothy Sullivan.

2:34 · I'm your host, Nick Lowry of Kitano Sake, and today our guest is Timothy Sullivan.

2:39 · of the Sake Study Center at Brooklyn Kura So today for our session, I'd like to start by just giving an opportunity to introduce you to the viewers.

2:48 · I guess I don't know whether or not you need an introduction.

2:51 · I think if If there's anyone in the sake industry that doesn't, hahaha it's probably you for how present you are out in the world.

2:58 · But I want to give you an opportunity to introduce yourself and just to learn a little bit more about what makes you tick, not just as a sake expert, but as Timothy Sullivan, the whole human being. And then in the second portion, the real meat of today's discussion is talking about that education component, what your thoughts are on building an education program, and hopefully for you to teach me something so that as I go forth in the world, I can educate others more effectively and not have them falling asleep in my class.

3:26 · Awesome.

3:27 · Sounds great.

3:29 · So let's start, let's learn about you.

Timothy’s Villain Origin Story

3:33 · the origin that I see for you, in Sake was around 2005. Does that time track for you?

3:40 · Yes, that's right. That sounds like the beginning of my villain origin story.

3:45 · I think that sounds right.

3:46 · Sure, your aha moment.

3:49 · Where were you in life at this point?

3:51 · What was 2005 Timothy Sullivan doing?

3:54 · Yeah, I ⁓ was working at a corporate job.

3:58 · I was Director of Website development for BarnesandNoble.com.

4:01 · And I was, you know, had a nine to five job living in New York.

4:05 · And I went out for a sushi dinner one night in 2005 and I had premium sake for the first time. ⁓ And it was so good, the sake and the pairing that I said, hey, I thought I was a sophisticated foodie New Yorker.

4:21 · And here's something I've never tried before.

4:23 · And it is amazing. I have to learn more about this.

4:27 · And I became really obsessed with it.

4:29 · And it basically started off as my hobby.

4:31 · And I started digging around and finding underground sake bars in New York City and talking with restaurant managers about sake.

4:41 · And it kind of grew as a hobby.

4:44 · And because I was working at a website, I had some web development skills and decided to start a website called Urban Sake.

4:52 · And I basically decided to start the website I was looking for and couldn't find.

4:57 · The English language, sake education website that explained what Sure.

5:01 · all these things were and helped me understand about the different bottles and the different regions. I couldn't find good information online in English anywhere. So I decided to...

5:11 · just build that myself. And my first website, Urban Sake, was kind of born out of that.

5:17 · That's great. ~ I have used Urban Sake for my own personal benefit, my own education, more times than I can count.

5:25 · In particular, you have a graph on there, Great, that's good to hear.

5:29 · special designation grades and the milling cutoffs that ~ I find super visually appealing and very helpful So I'm glad that you were entrepreneurial enough to get out there and make your own resource. ~ I don't know how entrepreneurial I was because it's all free.

5:49 · So I haven't, I haven't made a lot of coin from that yet, Okay, sure. Got it, but, ~ but, ~ yeah, okay. Maybe ambitious is a better word.

5:58 · but you know, I, I feel like I'm a super visual learner and basically for myself, I needed to organize that information and that particular chart you're talking about, we can show it here and you know, it, took a few years to evolve that information and kind of slice and dice it in different ways and then it all kind of fell into place and I'm like, this is a layout that makes sense to me and I've used that in all my classes since and I've heard from a lot of people at just as you said that it's been helpful when they're educating.

6:26 · So that makes me super happy.

6:28 · Yeah, if nothing else, your legacy will live on at minimum through that chart.

6:35 · a chart in a PowerPoint. What more could someone ask for?

6:37 · That's right. So 2005, you're still working full-time in your corporate role.

Desk Jockey to Samurai

6:42 · Mm-hmm.

6:42 · And this Urban Sake venture is really just your hobby.

6:47 · It's part-time, filling in your nights, Mm-hmm.

6:49 · your weekends, maybe a corporate lunch, Yes.

6:52 · I'm not sure if you do it, a three tokurri lunch.

6:55 · But 2007, you are awarded the Sake Samurai, is that right?

7:01 · ⁓ how did that feel to in two years time, That's right.

7:05 · this hobby of yours, now you're suddenly elevated to this level of Sake Samurai?

7:11 · Well, I think it goes to show how little information was out there at that time.

7:16 · Because I was just doing my thing, Okay.

7:20 · learning as I went along, and it was brought to the attention of the Brewers Association that there's this guy in New York, super passionate about sake and just doing this thing.

7:30 · And I think there was very little information out there in English at that point in the States. So they recognized that and it...

7:40 · really changed my life in a lot of ways, becoming a Sake Samurai. ⁓ When ⁓ I received that award, Yeah, I can only imagine.

7:48 · I came back ⁓ and began educating right away.

7:52 · So it really propelled me to become a sake educator and become a lot more serious about it. That was a huge, huge change for me.

8:03 · then you stayed in your corporate role for quite a few years after that until 2010, is that right?

8:11 · That's right.

8:13 · So what at that point made you decide to leave your corporate role and then was it at that time when you left that position did you decide I'm going into sake now this is my life?

8:25 · Yes, I I was spending all my nights and weekends working on Urban Sake.

8:29 · I began teaching professionally, like people would actually pay me to do a sake seminar.

8:34 · Sure. Sure.

8:35 · there was no real role model for me in the States.

8:39 · I was not fluent in Japanese, ⁓ had no background in hospitality or being a wine sommelier or anything like that.

8:47 · So the hospitality industry was a little foreign to me.

8:51 · but I knew I was super passionate about sake and I wanted to forge a path that I could earn a living and be involved in the sake industry somehow.

9:00 · So when I had saved up some money and was ready to take the leap, that was around 2010. I had been at my job for 11 years at that point and I felt that it was a good time to take the leap and I told myself at the time, let's try it for a year, year and a half and if it fall flat on your face and it doesn't work, you can go back to corporate America.

9:22 · That's not going anywhere. So I decided to take the leap and began trying to cobble together different jobs in the sake industry and figure out a way to earn a living. And that was, yeah, that was around 2010.

9:37 · And is that, you know, looking back to maybe your childhood or your early years, did young child Timothy Sullivan ever imagine like a world in food and beverage and education? Like was this ever even on your radar?

9:51 · Not specifically sake, obviously.

9:53 · I don't think any child except like maybe sons and daughters of brewers know what sake is. But like, did you think that one day you would be in this industry at all?

10:04 · Not at all. No, no, no. I had no connection to hospitality, beverage, anything like that. I studied languages in college and traveled quite a bit and I was a high school exchange student and I thought I might become an academic or do languages and never had any concept of being in the sake or the beverage industry.

10:29 · So not at all.

10:32 · Where do you think that spark came from?

10:33 · Do you think it was unique to sake or do you think there was something else that drew you to food and beverage broadly that then focused later on sake?

10:45 · I think it was sake in particular.

10:47 · I had been exposed to good wine and good beer and good cocktails when I was in my corporate job, when I was just out of college, and none of it really grabbed me or sparked my interest.

10:58 · So it was sake in particular. And then once I started learning about sake, took my first trip to Japan in 2007 and met brewers and met people in the industry and I saw what a fantastic community there was around sake.

11:13 · how delightful I found Japan. I started to study the language and all things about the culture. And for me, sake was a stepping stone into learning more about Japan.

11:24 · So I don't think, I think if I had studied wine previously or been a beer home brewer or had some other exposure to some other alcohol that I thought was amazing and fell in love with sake second, it would have been a different story.

11:40 · But for me, sake is really my first love in the food and beverage world.

11:44 · And it let me approach it from a very pure way.

11:48 · my, have a lot of students come to my classes after studying wine for 20 years, and it's really hard for them to break away from the wine modality of, you oh, this is like the Sancerre, da da da. I hear that all the time.

12:02 · it's like, no, let's just forget that for a second and let's approach sake on its own. So I came into it.

12:08 · with no background in any other food or beverage.

12:12 · And I really view that as a blessing because it let me approach sake very purely and just take it all in. And it's been fantastic.

12:20 · So I really appreciate that.

12:22 · That's great. I'm imagining a alternate universe where you instead ⁓ fell in love with German beers while you were studying ⁓ languages.

12:32 · You And there's the Timothy Sullivan in Liederhosen walking around teaching us all about Reinheitsgebot and famous beer styles.

12:40 · Okay, so Yep, he's out there somewhere.

Hakkaisan II: the Circle of Rice

12:43 · 2010, you make the leap, you go full-time sake.

12:46 · You're still at this point kind of flying solo, doing education, entrepreneurial, freelance type stuff, I gather.

12:56 · But that changes in 2013, where you land a role with Hakkaisan as their global brand ambassador.

13:04 · Tell me about how that opportunity came to be.

13:08 · Well, I have a very long history with Hakkaisan You know, I mentioned I went out for that sushi dinner in 2005, and this is no joke, this is 100 % the truth, but that very first sake I ever had was Hakkaisan Junmai ginjo.

13:21 · And it struck me as being so delicious.

13:24 · So that always stayed in the back of my mind.

13:26 · I actually, the very first time I had it, I didn't make a note of what it was.

13:30 · I just remember being so impressed, and that was delicious, and the pairing, my god.

13:34 · And then it stayed with me and I was like, I gotta go back to that restaurant and find out what I ordered.

13:39 · And I remember taking a photo of the menu with my Palm Pilot camera back in 2005.

13:46 · Okay.

13:48 · I have this grainy photo insert here of the menu that was on the wall at this sushi restaurant. And so I made a note of the brand and the name and I'm like, okay, I gotta look more into this.

14:00 · This was really the start of the website and of my passion for sake.

14:05 · So that brand always stayed with me.

14:08 · And then ⁓ I met one of the sales reps in New York.

14:12 · I was having dinner at Sakagura here in the city ⁓ and the manager who I knew pretty well at that point came over to me and they're like, "Hey, I know you're a big Hakkaisan fan.

14:21 · The sales rep is here. Do you want to say hello?" And so I met the sales Ha rep and I was like a fan boy and I was like, "Oh my God.

14:37 · What are doing now?

14:42 · she's like, ⁓ "OK, absolutely.

14:43 · We would love to have you." So ⁓ I went and I had dinner with, sorry, I had lunch with the President ⁓ and they had a translator there for me and I had a lovely afternoon.

14:54 · And that was the start of, that was 2008, and that was the start of visiting them, doing little jobs for them. And then in 2013, they invited me to represent them exclusively.

15:03 · So that began my role as a brand ambassador.

15:07 · Wow.

15:08 · So that was a long-forged relationship before you were offered that position.

15:13 · Yeah, but I think that's very common in Japanese business culture.

15:17 · It's like you can't go knock on a brewery door and say, hey, I want to work here. They're like, who are you? ~ So I think in Japanese business relationships, Sure, yeah.

15:25 · trust is built over time and relationships are built over time.

15:28 · And I was still figuring out what I wanted to do, who I wanted to work for. And ⁓ working with Hakkaisan became a great fit for me.

15:37 · And from 2013, they made it official.

15:39 · They had a ceremony at the brewery and they gave me a certificate and it was very serious situation.

15:46 · And I was like, okay, I better take this serious.

15:49 · And it's been, it's been a fantastic working relationship with them.

15:53 · that's fantastic that you were able to land a job with your...

15:57 · I mean, is it fair to call this your dream job for your dream company?

15:58 · Hmm.

16:02 · Well, it's been an evolution and I feel like what I have now has become a real dream job. And back then, think we were still, you know, 2013, 2014, 2015, we were still finding a way to work together.

16:17 · And what does brand ambassador for a sake brewery even mean?

16:21 · Like I didn't know anyone else who was doing that.

16:23 · So we had to find a way to work together effectively and It was learning on both our sides, I think, and it's been great.

16:34 · But there are cultural differences and different things that you learn along the way. And it's been getting better and better and better as I learn more about how Japanese people do business and vice versa.

16:46 · with mutual respect, it's been great and good experience all around.

16:52 · Awesome. So then let's fast forward a little bit to now your, what is your current role? eventually Hakkaisan ⁓ and Brooklyn Kura enter into a business partnership. Can you remind me when that happens?

17:05 · Yeah, they started talking in 2020, 2021, and that became formalized around 2021.

17:13 · And Hakkaisan invested in Brooklyn Kura, it's called a strategic partnership, and they became business partners.

17:23 · And after that, I started working for both companies.

17:29 · Okay. And then ⁓ in... around that time, Brooklyn Kura starts planning their upgrade from ⁓ a relatively small unit of Industry City to their current footprint, much larger.

Sake’s New School

17:39 · and in that evolution at what stage of the brewery design was this idea Mm-hmm.

17:45 · of the Sake Studies Center conceived?

17:50 · I think the idea of doing education along with this partnership started from the very beginning. Both Brooklyn Kura ⁓ and ⁓ Hakkaisan and myself have a joint vision, and that is making sake a global beverage, a sake that is produced and enjoyed all around the world.

18:11 · And in order to make that happen, we have a very firm belief that education has to be the cornerstone of this effort.

18:18 · So from the very beginning when they were planning the brewery, they invited me into conversations about starting an education institute as part of the brewery and the offices there.

18:33 · And so I met with Brian Polen, the President of Brooklyn Kura, and I met with Hakkaisan and we decided to split my time 50-50 and it was proposed that I work 50% of the time as Hakkaisan brand ambassador and travel for that, which I still do. And the rest of my time, I work on education efforts at Brooklyn Kura.

18:57 · And we started a school called the Sake Studies Center and we offer both consumer and professional classes. And one thing that makes the Sake Studies Center really unique is that we're the only sake school that is attached to a working, functioning brewery.

19:14 · And we can literally take every class that we have, Yeah.

19:17 · every education that we do, we can take them into the brewery and walk around and smell the smells and see the sites and see brewers working.

19:26 · it's ⁓ an amazing adjunct to being able to teach about sake and then experience it. We also have things like fresh Kasu and fresh koji Totally.

19:37 · and shiboritate And ⁓ we have access to these things that just bring the classroom alive and it's been fantastic.

19:46 · So enter like the dream job, right?

19:48 · So it's been fantastic to get into teaching but have Yeah, absolutely.

19:53 · the brewery right down the hallway has just been unbelievable.

19:58 · So it's been great and we've been working really hard to develop the school and bring some value to the sake industry through our classes.

20:08 · Well, let me ask you about that.

20:10 · can you give us some examples of those programs that you're currently offering?

20:13 · You mentioned that you are doing professional and public education.

20:17 · So what are some examples of the curriculum that you have now?

20:21 · Yeah, so on the consumer side, we do a lot of classes. Every week we have one or two classes.

20:27 · That's things like a sake 101 or sake and cheese pairing, sake and desserts. We do a warm sake tasting class.

20:35 · We have a whole sake for wine lovers.

20:39 · We did an American craft sake class.

20:41 · These are classes that are 90 minutes long.

20:44 · We do about 50 minutes of education.

20:48 · We taste four or five sake, we have a little appetizer plate for pairing, and we try to make it fun. Like I let my dad jokes fly like crazy, you know, and ~ it, yeah, That's a must.

21:01 · absolutely. And it, you know, we try to make it really entertaining.

21:05 · And then we always do a brewery tour with the people that come in for a class.

21:09 · And then we also have our taproom space and we can take them into the taproom at the end of class. So.

21:16 · Those are for people taking their first steps into Sake.

21:20 · And they're very popular and it's a lot of fun.

21:22 · I love teaching them. We have a few other staff members on staff at Brooklyn Kura who also teach some of those consumer level classes.

21:31 · So that's one ⁓ big part of what we do.

21:34 · And then on the professional side, I've developed two classes that we've taught over the past couple years.

21:44 · And this is a class that is geared specifically for people who work in hospitality or who work in retail.

21:50 · And if you are selling sake to somebody, this is the class for you. I looked at all the education that was out there and I had taught many of the programs over the years.

22:02 · And I saw this hole in the market for training people who work at restaurants.

22:08 · When I talk to people who work in restaurants, they're like, oh yeah, the distributor came in and gave us a 10 minute a quick rundown about classifications, honjozo something, and it was always incomplete.

22:22 · And so I wanted to create a one day training that was geared specifically for restaurant and retail people.

22:28 · So we created that and we invite people from all over the industry to come and we do a full day training, all the basics. We do a brewery tour, we taste Moromi and Koji, and then we teach them how to open bottles, pour bottles, how to service and what Omotenashi or Japanese hospitality is all about.

22:48 · And we basically give people the one day deep dive training into ~ service presentation and theory of sake knowledge.

22:57 · And it's been very, very popular, very successful. And after we did that for about a year and a half, there was some demand for a level two.

23:10 · and that's called the Advanced Sake Studies Certification.

23:13 · And this is just a deeper dive into all the theory.

23:15 · We taste 30 sakes blind and we practice writing tasting notes.

23:19 · But the one difference that is very special about this Advanced Sake Studies class is that we offer our students a chance to do work in the brewery.

23:29 · So we do it over two Mondays ⁓ and we get the students into wow, okay.

23:35 · the Koji Room making koji on one day we do ~ stirring the tanks and rice steaming on the other day.

23:41 · And people get exposure to what it's like to actually work at the brewery.

23:47 · So it's like a first step into production.

23:49 · And again, it's something we can offer because we have a brewery attached to our school. So it's been absolutely amazing.

23:56 · We got fantastic feedback from the first time we offered that.

23:59 · And we're gonna be offering that again in April of 2025.

24:04 · So that's Awesome.

24:05 · our level two class. that's been great to dream up how to structure that and execute it. And ~ we want to offer that a few times every year.

24:15 · And we offer the Sake server every month.

24:18 · great, okay, so you're offering a lot of those classes.

24:20 · That's awesome. And is it, I assume it's a prerequisite that you take the level one course before you graduate on to the advanced course?

24:29 · Yeah, if you want to take our level two course, we ask that you have some prior Sake seminar training.

24:36 · could be John Gatner's level one class, it could be Sake School of America, Sake Advisor, ⁓ or some other WSET level two, something that is ⁓ a basic introduction to Sake.

24:47 · ⁓ And if you've got that under your belt, you're welcome to take the advanced class.

24:52 · It's not good for people who've never had sake training before, but...

24:56 · If you've taken our server class or something equivalent, then it'll be a good fit for you.

25:01 · Got it. And you mentioned a couple times that you also talk about theory.

25:05 · Would you dive a little bit deeper into when you say theory, what do you mean? Do you mean strictly the production side of things, or do you mean more broadly tasting and pairing and sort of the more, I guess, ethereal sort of aspects of sake?

25:23 · Yeah, when I say theory, I mean kind of the textbook learning about sake.

25:27 · So that's ingredients, classification, and production, and history. So those are the four things I kind of focus on when I say theory. I mean those kind of textbook learning things where you sit down in a classroom, PowerPoint, and you're teaching these things that they need to understand.

25:45 · I view blind tasting as a separate skill, and we teach that as well. And then we also have the service portion in the server class.

25:54 · And we also talk about food pairing and storage, things that would be of interest to someone working in the hospitality industry.

26:01 · But for me theory is kind of all that stuff that you would get in every Sake 101 class, the classifications, the styles, the ingredients and the production method.

26:14 · So that's all stuff you have to cover.

26:19 · the depth we go into those topics depends on which level you're at.

26:23 · So if you're just gonna be a server, I wanna train you so that you can answer the questions that, the most common questions you're gonna get from your customers.

26:32 · But if you're going to a more advanced level, we wanna dive into all the nerdy details and that's a lot of fun when you get to those more advanced levels.

26:40 · Yeah, there's no shortage of those nerdy details to dive into.

26:44 · for sure.

26:44 · And I take it, ⁓ or I would assume that the taproom staff that ⁓ is at Brooklyn Kura has all gone through these courses, or is there a separate course, separate training that the taproom staff goes through?

26:58 · Yeah, anyone who works in the Taproom has gone through the Sake Server course.

27:03 · And that's, I think, a really good basis for the work in a Sake Taproom.

27:09 · So we invite all of our Taproom staff to go through that training.

27:14 · And then for the advanced class, keep the class very small. We've offered it once in 2025.

27:22 · And we invited one staff member from the Taproom to take it.

27:28 · and all the other attendees, all the other students were paying customers.

27:32 · So we had a good balance and we will include more staff room training in 2026 when we offer this advanced class again.

27:40 · And it's a great chance for people who work in the taproom to have a chance to go into the Koji Room and make Koji.

27:46 · It makes a very big impression on someone learning about sake to actually Yeah, absolutely.

27:50 · do that work, even if it's only briefly.

27:54 · I remember back to like the first time I stepped inside a Koji room and I was like, holy moly, what is going on here?

28:00 · And it physically experiencing that with your senses, even though I wasn't doing the work, I was seeing everything happening and it makes a huge impression.

28:06 · Mm-hmm.

28:09 · And I'm left with the feeling of awe and wonder for how much work and attention to detail goes into making sake.

28:17 · And it makes you appreciate the end product even more.

28:21 · So that's one thing we really hope to achieve by having people get in there Totally.

28:25 · and work on it themselves.

28:28 · Yeah, I agree 100% on that point.

28:30 · And in my time at moto-i we would do something similar with our front of house staff, especially on, in part to give them an education, but also selfishly, because we had a small brewery staff, we would bring in on our busiest days, the naka and the tome builds, where, you know, there's the most physical labor that needed to be done.

28:52 · We would bring a member from the front of house team, a server, a bartender, a wait assist.

28:57 · to come do like a half shift in the brewery and see what is it like to take this rice out of the steamer?

29:03 · What is it like to apply Koji spores?

29:05 · to not only give them an appreciation for the beverage that we sell, but then to give them that connection where they can say to a customer, and this sake right here, I actually had my hands in this sake, I helped make this batch. I think it imbues a bit more of ownership and respect for the process when you can be involved in it physically.

29:29 · So, 100 % agree.

Future of the SSC

29:33 · So I mean it sounds like the Sake Study Center is already like stretching its legs doing amazing work but I would assume from what I know about you you're not one to rest on your laurels so what's the future of the Sake Study Center? What's coming down the pipeline?

29:48 · ~ Yeah.

29:48 · Anything you can share with us?

29:51 · Yeah. I want to mention one other thing that we do.

29:53 · I mentioned the consumer classes ⁓ and our professional classes, please.

29:56 · but one other thing we do at the Sake Studies Center that I'm really proud of is we invite other educators to come to our space and teach there.

30:05 · So we've had John Gauntner teach his class there.

30:07 · We've had Michael Tremblay teach the Sake Scholar course.

30:10 · ⁓ We have the Sake School of America come in and do the WSET program.

30:15 · So it is not just what we're doing.

30:18 · and what we've developed in-house, we open up our classroom and our brewery tours to any educators that want to come and use the space for their programs.

30:29 · And we always envisioned it this way, that it would be a center that people can use and not just something that we use to sell just our own products and lock people in, Sure.

30:39 · but we really want to invite other educators to come.

30:43 · And that has happened. And we always are so thrilled when we can host another educator coming in and running their program.

30:52 · So that's the other thing we do that is fantastic.

30:56 · What's on the horizon? Well, I've been saying this for a long time, but I firmly believe that in 2026 that this will happen.

31:04 · But we also want to do a type of program that we can reach outside of New York, and that involves video classes.

31:10 · Okay.

31:11 · So we want to do a type of online education where we can do video courses from the brewery and whether they're pre-recorded or live, and do more video to reach students that can't make it to Brooklyn or can't make it to New York. So that's a big project I've been working on for a long time to make that happen.

31:32 · Do you think these will be distance versions of your current programs or do you anticipate that these will be novel courses that are unique to this format?

31:46 · No, think we'll take, it'll be a version of what we do and we're gonna focus primarily on like a Sake 101 class because most people out there in the heartland may not have access to certain sake.

31:58 · So we wanna make something that's very approachable, very easy, but gives people a way to get an introduction to sake.

32:05 · And we think like a pre-recorded video would be a fantastic way to offer like have an online version of our Sake 101 class.

32:14 · so that we can reach those people that don't have access to come in person.

32:18 · you know, sake's could be ordered online and shipped to most states these days.

32:23 · So we would have like a little online collection that you could order from and taste along with the online video.

32:29 · So, but that, as you know, video production is not easy and editing, Yeah, I'm thumbing my way through it now.

32:37 · editing is its, ~ editing is its own skill and.

32:40 · ~ You know, we have to do this in addition to everything else we're doing to try to keep the in-person programs going.

32:47 · So that's one thing we're working on that I'm super excited about.

32:50 · And we're also talking about a level three to the professional training, like a sake brewing bootcamp or a longer brewing internship.

32:59 · We think that that would be a great way to, again, achieve our goal of making sake a global beverage, giving people a place in New York where they can come and learn and intern.

33:10 · So that's on the table as well for something we might develop in the coming year or two.

33:17 · Awesome, yeah, I think that's something that we need on this hemisphere.

33:20 · There are certainly options out there to learn the production side of things, but there are a lot of barriers.

33:28 · You either have to do a lot of bootstrapping or you have to be willing to spend a lot of time and energy to find a brewery that's willing to host you.

33:36 · So that's something sorely needed, Yes.

33:39 · so I'm very excited to hear that.

33:43 · Yeah, we're excited about it too.

33:45 · And I think there's room for all these efforts.

33:47 · So all the people doing education, all the people doing internships and training.

33:52 · I think that, you know, the industry is so small and ~ growing that there's room for everybody under the tent.

34:01 · So we're so excited for all the programs that are in Japan that are emerging in Japan to get training.

34:06 · And we're thinking about developing similar programs, but You know, it has to be balanced with all the other responsibilities at the brewery, making sake, selling sake, running our existing programs.

34:17 · So it's a step by step. We don't want to get ahead of ourselves.

34:20 · But as, as the school matures and as we find our rhythm and, and as we have more alumni, you know, as people go through our level one, level two, they might be learning in the industry and wanting the next step or wanting to become a brewer where they live.

34:39 · So I think as more people come through our program, that will create an audience for the next level.

34:46 · So I think it will come with time and we're very excited.

34:49 · I'm working on plans and it's something that we're super excited about.

34:53 · Excellent. And ⁓ I would assume that there's already quite a bit of information sharing and knowledge sharing between Brooklyn Kura's production side and the knowledge base that's at Hakkaisan, but has the Sake Study Center explored that relationship at all or is there any intention down the road to ⁓ maybe connect those bodies of knowledge?

35:18 · Well, we actually have a brewer from Hakkaisan living in Bay Ridge, Brooklyn and working at Brooklyn Kura.

35:24 · Okay.

35:25 · So we have a live in-person brewer, a kurabito from Hakkaisan, who's full-time at Brooklyn Kura.

35:33 · So it's great. If I ever have a question, I can ask Brandon or I can ask Umehara-san.

35:39 · ⁓ And I have the wealth of knowledge from Hakkaisan right there in the brewery and ⁓ all of Brandon's experience and ⁓ one of our brewers, Dave, as well.

35:49 · There's a lot of brewing experience that we have under the roof at Brooklyn Kura.

35:55 · So the partnership with Hakkaisan has been amazing and it's helped us Absolutely.

36:00 · to deepen my understanding of sake and it's been great for the study center as well.

36:06 · If we want to look at anything, we have resources we can pull on very immediately ⁓ right at Brooklyn Kura and that's...

36:13 · Fantastic.

36:15 · Do you, is there a potential future where sake study center courses or the sake study center organizes courses that go abroad that go to Hakkaisan or other breweries in Japan?

36:27 · Is that a potential future scenario?

36:31 · Yeah, it's not something we've talked about to date.

36:33 · And one of the reasons for that is again, our goal is to make Sake a global beverage and we want to encourage production outside of Japan.

36:42 · So I think that going there for training or we bring customers there for visits all the time to show them the production side in Japan.

36:52 · But we want to encourage people to start breweries outside of Japan and to grow production all over the world.

36:58 · So we like to have people train at Brooklyn Kura and show them how you can do this ⁓ outside of Japan.

37:05 · Some of the equipment is not available in the States.

37:09 · So how do you deal with that? If you don't have a real Yabuta or Absolutely.

37:13 · if you're missing this or that, how can you work around that? So having people come and see production, real life production in the US, I think is super valuable.

37:25 · to help people envision themselves creating sake outside of Japan.

37:29 · Totally.

37:30 · So that's really our goal is to encourage that entrepreneurship and that growth to make sake a global beverage.

37:37 · I don't wanna take people to Japan and say, hey, this is the only way you can do it.

37:40 · And if you can't live in Japan for five years and become fluent in Japanese, forget it. That's such an over...

37:46 · I remember when I considered wanting to move to Japan and immerse myself in...

37:52 · Japanese culture and just become a sake expert living in Japan and kind of immersing myself in the culture and living there and becoming fluent in the language. But I decided to go the route where I'm living outside of Japan and promoting sake culture to the wider world.

38:09 · That became the area that was the true passion.

38:11 · And there's people that fall in love with sake and move to Japan and are very happy they're promoting sake from within Japan.

38:17 · But I really wanted to take a route that helped spread sake to the wider world outside of Japan and support from that.

38:27 · And we need both.

38:29 · Yeah, you're the sake missionary out pushing the boundaries.

38:30 · but that's more of my, exactly, taking the good word out into the wilderness, yes.

Outro

38:38 · That's right, excellent.

38:39 · And that is where we'll leave part one of my discussion with Timothy Sullivan.

38:43 · Getting chills just thinking about the future with more sake being made around the world. Thank you for making it this far into the video.

38:50 · Being here means you love sake.

38:53 · So please like this video, share it with someone who's heard Tim but might not know Tim, and subscribe to the Kitano Sake channel.

39:01 · Those things really do help us reach more people.

39:04 · In part two...

39:06 · We go on to dig into the state of sake education.

39:09 · What was sake education like when Tim got his start, and what is still getting lost in translation?

39:14 · What's the $12 bottle wine problem, and what does it mean for sake?

39:18 · And who does Tim think is the most important audience for growing the sake category?

39:23 · We also get into Tim's practical advice for educators.

39:27 · How to avoid overwhelming beginners, how to teach a mixed level room, and by admitting what you don't know might actually help teach people more.

39:35 · Thank you again and I look forward to seeing you for part two.

39:38 · Not that I'll be seeing you. You'll be seeing me.

39:42 · ~ I look forward to you seeing me.